Convert left, now disturbed

[ConfusedButNotOne!]

What is your understanding of how God came to exist in the first place?

I truly think mankind created God in order to feel not so alone, to have a purpose for their existence, to have meaning. Maybe it’s also to control people!

[Julio]

My apologies for a late response. Unfortunately I tested positive for Covid and was extremely sick. I’m slowly getting better.

I would think there would be one way to a God, not several religions. But hey, humans are good at making up things in the first place.

During my time I was sick for the past few weeks, I thought about it. Despite the fact I was pretty sick, my mind was still able to think about stuff. Sure, I did think if I was going to die but I also thought about religion. I was thinking how could a good and loving God allow such garbage to exist in life, ie Covid for example. I was also trying to figure out if God became a man how could he have only 12 followers and all were men? I’m talking about the 12 apostles. That part doesn’t point that Jesus was God to begin with. To my mind, it’s kinda absurd and doesn’t seem like an all powerful God would do something like that. But that’s just me.

I’ll be honest with you…I’m not really interested in searching for a God if he can’t actually prove to me he exists. The fact that I need faith and need to believe is a huge risk. I cannot accept something if there’s no proof for it. I’m not totally rejecting God, but if he were to show me some great evidence then I would accept it.

Also, if God exists, why would he allow me to get Covid right when I was trying to start a new job but couldn’t and it financially hurt me?? Explain that!

Do you understand why I’m having a hard time accepting such a claim?

I do not know why He allowed you to suffer. Job was faithful to God but suffering that was caused by the devil happened to him. The Creator has all the right over the created and the created are all equal before the eyes of God. The fact that you exist means God loves you because He made you. I cannot understand you because you are talking much about yourself my friend. You are just a miniscule part of the story of God. Your life is not about you. That is my humble explanation.

- - - Updated - - -

I truly think mankind created God in order to feel not so alone, to have a purpose for their existence, to have meaning. Maybe it’s also to control people!

God is not the competitor of the created, my friend. He is not among us to my understanding about God.

[ConfusedButNotOne!]

I do not know why He allowed you to suffer. Job was faithful to God but suffering that was caused by the devil happened to him. The Creator has all the right over the created and the created are all equal before the eyes of God. The fact that you exist means God loves you because He made you. I cannot understand you because you are talking much about yourself my friend. You are just a miniscule part of the story of God. Your life is not about you. That is my humble explanation.

- - - Updated - - -



God is not the competitor of the created, my friend. He is not among us to my understanding about God.

Why do Christians always bring up Job when it comes to suffering? I don’t care about Job and don’t care if he was faithful to God. I’m not sure if a devil exists either.

You said the “Creator has all the right over the created…” That is disturbing. The right to do whatever he wants? So if you accept that then you’ll accept anything that God can/will do?? Right? What if God were to become human, kidnap me and do all sorts of horrible things to me (I’m female by the way)? Would you accept that as being “ok” because you truly believe the “Creator has all the right”?

No, the fact I exist has to do with biological reasons, not because God loves me. I don’t exist because “God loves me”. I exist because my biological parents acted one night and I’m the result of that act! If God truly exists and truly “loves” everyone, why are there so many unwanted children in the world? Why would he allow them to be born in the first place?

Of course you don’t understand me because you’re not an atheist! Have you ever been an atheist? By your responses I don’t think you’ve been an atheist and since you have not, you won’t understand my views or the way I think. I question things, ok? It’s not my fault my brain is wired to ask questions and demand logic and reason. I understand how Christians think because I use to be one… both Protestant and Catholic! By the way, I don’t consider myself Catholic anymore. Period. I still don’t understand how you can believe in a God! Let me ask you, why do you believe in God? Is it because you were told to or do you have a good reason to?

I think for myself, I don’t let an organization do the thinking for me! If people in general started thinking for themselves they might have a better idea. The problem is religious people tend to believe thinking for one self is “evil” or “prideful”. It’s not.

[ConfusedButNotOne!]

I do not know why He allowed you to suffer. Job was faithful to God but suffering that was caused by the devil happened to him. The Creator has all the right over the created and the created are all equal before the eyes of God. The fact that you exist means God loves you because He made you. I cannot understand you because you are talking much about yourself my friend. You are just a miniscule part of the story of God. Your life is not about you. That is my humble explanation.

- - - Updated - - -



God is not the competitor of the created, my friend. He is not among us to my understanding about God.

Why do Christians always bring up Job when it comes to suffering? I don’t care about Job and don’t care if he was faithful to God. The Bible is not my source for truth.

You said the “Creator has all the right over the created…” That is disturbing. The right to do whatever he wants? So if you accept that then you’ll accept anything that God can/will do?? Right? What if God were to become human, kidnap me and do all sorts of horrible things to me (I’m female by the way)? Would you accept that as being “ok” because you truly believe the “Creator has all the right”?

No, the fact I exist has to do with biological reasons, not because God loves me. I don’t exist because “God loves me”. I exist because my biological parents acted one night and I’m the result of that act! If God truly exists and truly “loves” everyone, why are there so many unwanted children in the world? Why would he allow them to be born in the first place?

Of course you don’t understand me because you’re not an atheist! Have you ever been an atheist? By your responses I don’t think you’ve been an atheist and since you have not, you won’t understand my views or the way I think. I question things, ok? It’s not my fault my brain is wired to ask questions and demand logic and reason. I understand how Christians think because I use to be one… both Protestant and Catholic! By the way, I don’t consider myself Catholic anymore. Period. I still don’t understand how you can believe in a God! Let me ask you, why do you believe in God? Is it because you were told to or do you have a good reason to?

I think for myself, I don’t let an organization do the thinking for me! If people in general started thinking for themselves they might have a better idea. The problem is religious people tend to believe thinking for one self is “evil” or “prideful”. It’s not.

[CCF_Bob]

Why do Christians always bring up Job when it comes to suffering? I don’t care about Job and don’t care if he was faithful to God. The Bible is not my source for truth.

You said the “Creator has all the right over the created…” That is disturbing. The right to do whatever he wants? So if you accept that then you’ll accept anything that God can/will do?? Right? What if God were to become human, kidnap me and do all sorts of horrible things to me (I’m female by the way)? Would you accept that as being “ok” because you truly believe the “Creator has all the right”?

No, the fact I exist has to do with biological reasons, not because God loves me. I don’t exist because “God loves me”. I exist because my biological parents acted one night and I’m the result of that act! If God truly exists and truly “loves” everyone, why are there so many unwanted children in the world? Why would he allow them to be born in the first place?

Of course you don’t understand me because you’re not an atheist! Have you ever been an atheist? By your responses I don’t think you’ve been an atheist and since you have not, you won’t understand my views or the way I think. I question things, ok? It’s not my fault my brain is wired to ask questions and demand logic and reason. I understand how Christians think because I use to be one… both Protestant and Catholic! By the way, I don’t consider myself Catholic anymore. Period. I still don’t understand how you can believe in a God! Let me ask you, why do you believe in God? Is it because you were told to or do you have a good reason to?

I think for myself, I don’t let an organization do the thinking for me! If people in general started thinking for themselves they might have a better idea. The problem is religious people tend to believe thinking for one self is “evil” or “prideful”. It’s not.

Why did you come here? You say you are confused and want answers. Then you attack every answer you receive. The purpose of this forum to is discuss matters of faith and morals. At this point, it appears that you are here only to attack.

[ConfusedButNotOne!]

Why did you come here? You say you are confused and want answers. Then you attack every answer you receive. The purpose of this forum to is discuss matters of faith and morals. At this point, it appears that you are here only to attack.

I’m not attacking, just responding. Sometimes my responses can sound harsh but at least I’m being honest!

[CCF_Bob]

I’m not attacking, just responding. Sometimes my responses can sound harsh but at least I’m being honest!

You distortions lack any quality of honesty.

[ConfusedButNotOne!]

You distortions lack any quality of honesty.

That’s your opinion. I’m being honest.

[LeafByNiggle]

Why do Christians always bring up Job when it comes to suffering?

...because it brings us comfort regarding our own suffering.

You said the “Creator has all the right over the created…” That is disturbing.

To you maybe. To me it is immensely comforting.

So if you accept that then you’ll accept anything that God can/will do?? Right? What if God were to become human, kidnap me and do all sorts of horrible things to me...

When I take my dog to the vet, from the perspective of the dog, the vet is doing all sorts of horrible things to him that he does not understand. Yet we know that these things are ultimately for good. The difference between God and man is greater than the difference between man and dogs. So we are in no position to pass judgement on God as to what is objectively "horrible." Also you are making an assumption that God would do something to you that was not for your ultimate good.

No, the fact I exist has to do with biological reasons, not because God loves me. I don’t exist because “God loves me”. I exist because my biological parents acted one night and I’m the result of that act!

..which happened because God loves you.

If God truly exists and truly “loves” everyone, why are there so many unwanted children in the world?

This is a very common error in logic that is made by believers and unbelievers alike, in both matters of faith and in secular matters. The faulty logic starts by asking the general question, "If <X> is true, why is <Y> happening?" The unspoken argument is that since <Y> is true, and if we cannot see how <X> and <Y> can coexist, then <X> must be false. Thus your conclusion that God does not exist. The reason this argument is faulty is that it assumes infinite imagination on our part. Since we cannot imagine the justification for <X> and <Y> coexisting, there must not be one. To return to my dog at the vet, the dog could very well be asking the question "If that guy in the white coat is a good human, why does he inflict pain in me with that piercing thing?" Because the dog cannot imagine how getting medication through injection could ultimately make him healthy, the dog makes the same logical error. If you think "we are much smarter than dogs", that is true. But the difference between us the one who made us is even bigger. So the answer to your question is, I don't know, and that's OK.

Why would he allow them to be born in the first place?

Same error in logic.

Of course you don’t understand me because you’re not an atheist!

In your opinion. And I think Julio does understand you. He just doesn't agree with you.

I question things, ok?

There is nothing wrong with questioning things. The real problem is how we react when we fail to find an satisfying answer to our questions.

It’s not my fault my brain is wired to ask questions and demand logic and reason.

That's a good thing. But make sure that you are just as demanding of yourself when it comes to logic. Objective self-analysis of our reasoning is not that easy.

Let me ask you, why do you believe in God?

I think that I believe in God because God made me with a desire to know him. I think all people have this built-in desire. However that does not guarantee that they will follow that desire. There is personal choice involved too. Why some people make this personal choice and others do not is a question I cannot answer.

I think for myself, I don’t let an organization do the thinking for me!

If it was an organization of totally human origins and guidance, I would agree with you. But if the organization is an expression of the revelation of a loving God, wouldn't you want to defer to that organization?

If people in general started thinking for themselves they might have a better idea.

...or they might be rejecting the best idea.

The problem is religious people tend to believe thinking for one self is “evil” or “prideful”. It’s not.

When it comes to thinking for yourself over trusting in God, the mistake is the same one my dog makes when thinks for himself about the vet rather than trust me when I tell him it's going to be all right.

[ConfusedButNotOne!]

...because it brings us comfort regarding our own suffering.


To you maybe. To me it is immensely comforting.


When I take my dog to the vet, from the perspective of the dog, the vet is doing all sorts of horrible things to him that he does not understand. Yet we know that these things are ultimately for good. The difference between God and man is greater than the difference between man and dogs. So we are in no position to pass judgement on God as to what is objectively "horrible." Also you are making an assumption that God would do something to you that was not for your ultimate good.


..which happened because God loves you.


This is a very common error in logic that is made by believers and unbelievers alike, in both matters of faith and in secular matters. The faulty logic starts by asking the general question, "If <X> is true, why is <Y> happening?" The unspoken argument is that since <Y> is true, and if we cannot see how <X> and <Y> can coexist, then <X> must be false. Thus your conclusion that God does not exist. The reason this argument is faulty is that it assumes infinite imagination on our part. Since we cannot imagine the justification for <X> and <Y> coexisting, there must not be one. To return to my dog at the vet, the dog could very well be asking the question "If that guy in the white coat is a good human, why does he inflict pain in me with that piercing thing?" Because the dog cannot imagine how getting medication through injection could ultimately make him healthy, the dog makes the same logical error. If you think "we are much smarter than dogs", that is true. But the difference between us the one who made us is even bigger. So the answer to your question is, I don't know, and that's OK.


Same error in logic.


In your opinion. And I think Julio does understand you. He just doesn't agree with you.


There is nothing wrong with questioning things. The real problem is how we react when we fail to find an satisfying answer to our questions.


That's a good thing. But make sure that you are just as demanding of yourself when it comes to logic. Objective self-analysis of our reasoning is not that easy.


I think that I believe in God because God made me with a desire to know him. I think all people have this built-in desire. However that does not guarantee that they will follow that desire. There is personal choice involved too. Why some people make this personal choice and others do not is a question I cannot answer.


If it was an organization of totally human origins and guidance, I would agree with you. But if the organization is an expression of the revelation of a loving God, wouldn't you want to defer to that organization?

...or they might be rejecting the best idea.


When it comes to thinking for yourself over trusting in God, the mistake is the same one my dog makes when thinks for himself about the vet rather than trust me when I tell him it's going to be all right.

Your responses are pretty typical of being a believer. I would have to ask if you can demonstrate if what you said is actually true or if itÂ’s just something that you say to make yourself and other believers feel better.

I just find it strange how a “God” would create humanity and then can’t prove that he truly does exist. Like I said before, why does he require faith?? And then you say he “loves me”? For what? Does not make sense to me.

I think Julio didnÂ’t respond to me because what I said has perhaps challenged him. IÂ’ve asked many Christians before the same and they either canÂ’t respond or change the subjectÂ…because it is either or both challenging and uncomfortable. But thatÂ’s fine, he didnÂ’t respond. I think I know why and not surprised. I wish he would just be honest though.

You said God made you with a desire to know him. If thatÂ’s the case, have you seen him? How do you know he is real? If he made me like you said, why donÂ’t I know him? Why do I think he doesnÂ’t exist because he canÂ’t prove he is real? If heÂ’s all knowing that means he KNOWS IÂ’m having a hard time accepting himÂ…so why canÂ’t he do something to let me know he exists?

I will look at the church as a human organization until this “God” can show me otherwise.

Thanks for your responses!

[CCF_Carol]

Getting hit by a car is only temporary. Eternal damnation is not. Does eternal damnation mean that God’s mercy is limited?

(Lots of people are killed outright when hit by a car -- not a "temporary" effect.)

No, it does not mean God's mercy is limited. However, the "damnation" is self-elected, not imposed. God continues to offer mercy until our last breath is drawn, and we step beyond the limits of time into the "eternal now". God will not, however "inflict" mercy on us, for mercy is part of justice, which means "doing what is right". If we refuse to do what is right, we are refusing His mercy -- and refusing God, so why would a soul with that attitude choose to be with the One it rejected?

If you disdain a person for all they do and stand for, would you opt to move in permanently with them, or would you rather be with others like yourself?

[po18guy]

Look at the time line of all this. "IF" there is an evil spirit who desires your destruction, when would he attack your faith? Look at the timing of it all. Ponder why you lost your faith in one thing, only to believe in something else. No one believes in nothing. Atheism qualifies as a set of beliefs and practices that fit the definition of a religion - just not any traditional religion. It might be considered an anti-God religion.

Still, something incited you to lose faith and leave the Church. Something is now inciting you to distance yourself from the Church which Christ founded. If you want to erase all traces of the Church, if it really bugs you, that causes me to wonder. Just walking away is what most people do. Christianity is the faith of joy, promises and miracles. What have you now to look forward to? And why does something in your past bother you so much?

[NoelFitz]

I appreciate the concerns of ConfusedButNotOne.

To me God is incomprehensible. We cannot know God as he is. Supernatural faith is needed. I follow Gregory of Nyssa who, like others, held in negative (apophatic) theology. We cannot know what God is only what he is not. But a discussion on this is not for now.

I recall that in the early church it was the Christians who were considered atheists.

People distance themselves from the Church for many reasons, including the faults of Christians. In Ireland there has been an exodus from the Church, but I hope that I, by what I have done or failed to do, have not influenced anyone to leave the Church.

Christians, who are firmly committed or just hanging on, should pray and encourage others to pray for all the People of God.

Scripture teaches that we can have a true and personal knowledge of God, but this does not mean we will ever understand him exhaustively. The Bible is clear that God is ultimately incomprehensible to us; that is, we can never fully comprehend his whole being. The following passages show this:
Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised, and his greatness is unsearchable. (Ps. 145:3)
Behold, these are but the outskirts of his ways, and how small a whisper do we hear of him! But the thunder of his power who can understand? (Job 26:14)
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isa. 55:8–9)
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! "For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?" (Rom. 11:33–34; cf. Job 42:1–6; Ps. 139:6, 17–18; 147:5; Isa. 57:15; 1 Cor. 2:10–11; 1 Tim. 6:13–16)

Crossway.org

[ConfusedButNotOne!]

(Lots of people are killed outright when hit by a car -- not a "temporary" effect.)

No, it does not mean God's mercy is limited. However, the "damnation" is self-elected, not imposed. God continues to offer mercy until our last breath is drawn, and we step beyond the limits of time into the "eternal now". God will not, however "inflict" mercy on us, for mercy is part of justice, which means "doing what is right". If we refuse to do what is right, we are refusing His mercy -- and refusing God, so why would a soul with that attitude choose to be with the One it rejected?

If you disdain a person for all they do and stand for, would you opt to move in permanently with them, or would you rather be with others like yourself?

My idea of “temporary” is different than yours. That’s not what I meant.

I thought a lot about it. That’s why I haven’t been on here much. Believe it or not, I said a sincere prayer for the first time since I left. I don’t know why I did it because intellectually I can’t accept or do it…but deep down I felt a need to. I did it anyway.

The results after this prayer? I now have a strong desire to go to a midnight Mass on Christmas…and it won’t go away. Maybe that is an answer.

[ConfusedButNotOne!]

Look at the time line of all this. "IF" there is an evil spirit who desires your destruction, when would he attack your faith? Look at the timing of it all. Ponder why you lost your faith in one thing, only to believe in something else. No one believes in nothing. Atheism qualifies as a set of beliefs and practices that fit the definition of a religion - just not any traditional religion. It might be considered an anti-God religion.

Still, something incited you to lose faith and leave the Church. Something is now inciting you to distance yourself from the Church which Christ founded. If you want to erase all traces of the Church, if it really bugs you, that causes me to wonder. Just walking away is what most people do. Christianity is the faith of joy, promises and miracles. What have you now to look forward to? And why does something in your past bother you so much?

If God truly exists, like I hope to find out someday, maybe there’s a reason why I left and became atheist. Christians tell me “Nothing can happen without God’s permission.”

I did distance myself from the church…but now I’m kinda back with a skeptical yet curious mind.

It bothered me because I found out I’m still Catholic even after becoming an atheist and excommunicating myself. How can I be something I am no longer a part of? I was hoping there would be a way to officially separate myself from Catholicism forever but found out I can’t. At the same time I feel drawn to it, which is intellectually unacceptable but at the same time, it’s pulling me like a magnet. I have to check it out.

Remember, I want truth. If my mistake of leaving brought me away from the truth, then I need to correct it. It’s going to be difficult.

[ConfusedButNotOne!]

I appreciate the concerns of ConfusedButNotOne.

To me God is incomprehensible. We cannot know God as he is. Supernatural faith is needed. I follow Gregory of Nyssa who, like others, held in negative (apophatic) theology. We cannot know what God is only what he is not. But a discussion on this is not for now.

I recall that in the early church it was the Christians who were considered atheists.

People distance themselves from the Church for many reasons, including the faults of Christians. In Ireland there has been an exodus from the Church, but I hope that I, by what I have done or failed to do, have not influenced anyone to leave the Church.

Christians, who are firmly committed or just hanging on, should pray and encourage others to pray for all the People of God.

Thank you for your comments. I hope to find out where this will lead me.

It’s hard for me to believe an incomprehensible God to be “known” by humans. If he is incomprehensible then how do humans comprehend even a little bit? But then again, anything is possible in this universe!

[CCF_Bob]

If God truly exists, like I hope to find out someday, maybe there’s a reason why I left and became atheist. Christians tell me “Nothing can happen without God’s permission.”

I did distance myself from the church…but now I’m kinda back with a skeptical yet curious mind.

It bothered me because I found out I’m still Catholic even after becoming an atheist and excommunicating myself. How can I be something I am no longer a part of? I was hoping there would be a way to officially separate myself from Catholicism forever but found out I can’t. At the same time I feel drawn to it, which is intellectually unacceptable but at the same time, it’s pulling me like a magnet. I have to check it out.

Remember, I want truth. If my mistake of leaving brought me away from the truth, then I need to correct it. It’s going to be difficult.

Thank you for your comments. I hope to find out where this will lead me.

It’s hard for me to believe an incomprehensible God to be “known” by humans. If he is incomprehensible then how do humans comprehend even a little bit? But then again, anything is possible in this universe!

You can't be un-baptized. Just like with your family, you can deny them, reject them, disown them, but the reality that they are your blood relatives can never be changed. God loves you, no matter how much you doubt or deny. He loves you so much that he will let you walk as far away as you desire, but he will still love you and it is that love you feel in your heart. That is why you feel drawn back. It is not necessary to comprehend the divinity of God to know that God exists. Going to the Midnight Mass is a great idea, but check first. Many places now actually have the Mass earlier in the evening as it will probably last until 1:30-2:00 am. On snowy and icy streets it may be a dangerous trip home after. Go early, too, as there church will be full and you may not get a seat. When the priest elevate the host, look and see the face of God and feel his love.

[Job28]

Hi,

IÂ’m new to the forum but I must say I just learned something that is quite disturbing.

Long story short, I converted to Catholicism from a Protestant church and after going through RCIA and getting confirmed, I left and never came back.

I eventually ended up becoming an atheist.

I just learned from a few coworkers that IÂ’m still considered Catholic even if I left and became atheist!

My question is, how on earth is this possible and is there a way to not be part of the church officially?

If I could have my question answered without any condemnation or judgement IÂ’d appreciate it.

Thanks!

My question to you would be why does it matter? If you choose not to believe anymore that is your choice. It's not like officially being considered a Catholic has condemned you to anything bad is it? BTW I'm not Catholic at least I don't think I would be considered Catholic although I have attended a Catholic church on a few occasions in the past. My mistake was in choosing to stop believing in Christ. Anyway I just can't see why this is so bothersome to you. If you could explain why this is so bothersome that would be good. If however you are interested in getting to know God, this is what worked for me from The Simple Prayer Book - A QUARTER OF AN HOUR BEFORE THE BLESSED SACRAMENT. https://www.ecatholic2000.com/cts/untitled-388.shtml You'll have to scroll down the page to find the prayer. I did read this prayer with conviction and I suggest if you read it you do the same. This prayer is very powerful and said in the right way you will know God I guarantee you, because I'm not special and I did know God after reading this prayer.

[NoelFitz]

The OP was a Protestant then became a Catholic before becoming an atheist, who now wants to be no longer a Catholic and asks:

is there a way to not be part of the church officially?

The answer is that there is not a way to stop officially being a Catholic.
There have been almost 100 posts in this thread, which along the way discussed several very interesting issues.
However, The answer to the OP’s question is clear.