Would Banning Semi-Automatics End Mass Shootings?

[LeafByNiggle]

That is a very narrow interpretation of the Catechism and not one that takes into account what is a distinctly American form of government. If the constitution gives American citizens the right to keep and bear arms then that certainly gives them the "legitimate authority" to provide for their own "legitimate defense" in the Catechism's own context. The civil authority can and does devolve from the consent of the governed.

I think I got onto an irrelevant track by my first response to this where I talked about gun control being as American as the Constitution. I still believe that, but it is irrelevant to the point I made about the Catechism. So let me back up to this point again and offer the following response instead:

Your comment was a response to mine that said:

The term "legitimate authority" is used frequently in the catechism, and it always means civil government. This interpretation in this case is confirmed by the additional term "common good," which appears in the previous sentence in the catechism. I am fairly certain that those who wrote the catechism were not sloppy in their choice of words, and that they mean what they say.

Now let's look at your response about this being a "narrow interpretation of the Catechism." You correctly point out that a people can decide, through their elected government, who is and who is not a legitimate authority. They can elect anyone they want Sheriff, for example. And if a people decides that they want all citizens to be Sheriffs, they can do that too. But the US did not do that. The 2nd amendment does not appoint all citizens as Sheriffs or anything like that. US law does make a distinction between elected or appointed authorities, and general citizens acting in their own interests. Therefore my "narrow" reading of the Catechism applies in this case. "Legitimate authority" refers to civil authorities. Can you find any authentic interpretation of the Catechism by a bishop or priest or doctor of the Church that says paragraph 2265 as applied to the US really means "legitimate authority" = "everybody?" If so, why was the term "legitimate authority" used instead of the more direct "all people?"

[bobs]

With such a history it would be a mistake to claim that gun control has been a part of the American experience for a long time.

Did you mean to say that?

[LeafByNiggle]

Did you mean to say that?

No, I meant the opposite. Thanks.

[WATCHDOG]

Interesting that you should bring up stats on Chicago immediately after explaining exactly what a red herring is.

I guess you wanted to give an example of a red herring by talking about Chicago?

No. Chicago isn't the example of the Red Herring...

Interesting that the argument/specter of Arming every Chicago Citizen was brought up..
only several posts after I'd posted about Chicago (ref: post 33) and I quote:

Many tough existing gun laws which exist such as in e.g. Chicago sound great on paper..

The reality shows that for the most part they haven't been enforced..

To date in Chicago, almost 1,200 people have been shot this year 2018..

Yes.. Let's put 'arming Teachers' on the side burner for a moment..

There's been an increase in armed guards and metal detectors in schools, etc..

Which in turn has corresponded to increase in confiscated guns and knives. .

Considering what's a stake (LIFE) all opposing arguments to one / both don't hold water..

Concerned folks want to quickly implement methods of minimizing violence in schools..

Concerned folks seek suggestions and implementation which work Today..

[bobs]

In every thread of this type, someone will say that the remedy is to put God back into society. Teach a moral life and restore the family. It is immediately dismissed as impractical. All of the rest of the suggestions are immediately labeled as impractical and ineffective.

The simple truth is that without God and a moral code, this atrocities will continue. If I had children now and could not get them into a Parochial School that I approved of, I would home school them. If i wwere forced to send them to a public schooo, I would look for kevlar clothing.

[BigMacDaddy83]

https://www.dailywire.com/news/31955...mpaign=dwbrand

[LeafByNiggle]

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b0b0e5a79f3cc4

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b0352fed3e6cf9

From 2006-2016, almost 6,885 people in the U.S. died from unintentional shootings.

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In every thread of this type, someone will say that the remedy is to put God back into society. Teach a moral life and restore the family. It is immediately dismissed as impractical.

That's not what I am saying. I agree that we would be better off to put God back into society, and we should work toward that. But in addition to that effort, we should also consider what secular efforts we could make to that end.

[CCF_Michael]

In every thread of this type, someone will say that the remedy is to put God back into society. Teach a moral life and restore the family. It is immediately dismissed as impractical. All of the rest of the suggestions are immediately labeled as impractical and ineffective.

The simple truth is that without God and a moral code, this atrocities will continue. If I had children now and could not get them into a Parochial School that I approved of, I would home school them. If i wwere forced to send them to a public schooo, I would look for kevlar clothing.

George Washington said something similar.
“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim tribute to patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness - these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. . . . reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principles.” - George Washington

“The future of this nation depends on the Christian training of our youth.” - George Washington “What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.” - George Washington

“Do not let anyone claim tribute of American patriotism if they even attempt to remove religion from politics.” - George Washington

“Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself.” - George Washington

“The most dangerous of all false doctrines is the one seasoned with a little truth. It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.” - George Washington
“Be Americans. Let there be no sectionalism, no North, South, East or West. You are all dependent on one another and should be one in union. In one word, be a nation. Be Americans, and be true to yourselves.” - George Washington

“A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined; to which end a uniform and well-digested plan is requisite; and their safety and interest require that they should promote such manufactories as tend to render them independent of others for essential, particularly military, supplies.” - George Washington

[BigMacDaddy83]

[url]

From 2006-2016, almost 6,885 people in the U.S. died from unintentional shootings.

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10,182 were murdered with a gun in 2016 alone

https://www.statista.com/statistics/195325/murder-victims-in-the-us-by-weapon-used/

[LeafByNiggle]

Bishop Frank J. Dewane supports gun control:

Testimony before Congress by USCCB:

Bishop Stephen E. Blaire supports gun control:

2012 News Release from USCCB:

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10,182 were murdered with a gun in 2016 alone

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...y-weapon-used/

But it is mere speculation that most or even some of those murders would have been prevented if more people had been armed. And it is also reasonable speculation that if more people had been armed, there would have been even more people killed from accidental shootings. Your one example of a citizen stopping a bad guy - that was solid evidence. No speculation was needed. He certainly did stop the bad guy. But extrapolating to say that a significant number of the 10,182 could also have been prevented is pure speculation.

[BigMacDaddy83]

Bishop Frank J. Dewane supports gun control:

Testimony before Congress by USCCB:

Bishop Stephen E. Blaire supports gun control:

2012 News Release from USCCB:

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But it is mere speculation that most or even some of those murders would have been prevented if more people had been armed. And it is also reasonable speculation that if more people had been armed, there would have been even more people killed from accidental shootings. Your one example of a citizen stopping a bad guy - that was solid evidence. No speculation was needed. He certainly did stop the bad guy. But extrapolating to say that a significant number of the 10,182 could also have been prevented is pure speculation.

Again, by all means, if you believe that reading off catechism and a bishop's support of gun control to a murderer is going to stop him from pulling the trigger (which would be mere speculation as you call it) then go ahead, give it a try. I prefer the idea of deterrence. I firmly believe a murderer doesn't care about a gun law, nor a bishop who supports said gun law, or even the catechism that guides that bishop's principles.

[LeafByNiggle]

Again, by all means, if you believe that reading off catechism and a bishop's support of gun control to a murderer is going to stop him from pulling the trigger...

The Catechism and the Bishops' statements are addressed to us. They are statements of what we should do. Did you think the Church was speaking only to murderers in these policy statements?

[BigMacDaddy83]

The Catechism and the Bishops' statements are addressed to us. They are statements of what we should do. Did you think the Church was speaking only to murderers in these policy statements?

That is not what I said at all. Nor is that what this debate has ever been about. The debate was, and always has been, would banning semiautomatic weapons stop the mass shootings. Several of us have offered many deterrents that would at the very least minimize mass shootings at schools. We have offered statistical evidence to back up our arguments. At this point you have abandoned arguing what would or would not stop the mass shootings in an attempt to divert the conversation to a totally different topic.

[LeafByNiggle]

That is not what I said at all. Nor is that what this debate has ever been about. The debate was, and always has been, would banning semiautomatic weapons stop the mass shootings.

That ship has sailed a long time ago. Very few of the postings beyond the first couple of poll answers have been strictly on target, to wit: Listing of Founding Fathers statements, the efficacy and cost of metal detectors, the total number of murders in one year... These are all outside the topic of what a ban on semiautomatic weapons might do. Frankly, I don't think there is anything more to say about the poll question. It is universally agreed, including by me, that the answer to the poll question is "no." That's how I voted. All the discussion after that has been off-topic. So I hardly think I should be faulted for continuing the off-topic discussion.

Several of us have offered many deterrents that would at the very least minimize mass shootings at schools. We have offered statistical evidence to back up our arguments. At this point you have abandoned arguing what would or would not stop the mass shootings in an attempt to divert the conversation to a totally different topic.

But the discussion of alternate deterrents is also off-topic. The topic was not "which is the best method to stop mass shootings?" It was "will this particular method stop mass shootings." Discussion of alternate methods says nothing about the method in the title. But that is OK with me, if it is OK with you, to discuss alternate solutions, and the morality of those solutions, since that has already been put on the table. In that case the Catechism and statements from our Bishops are entirely on-topic, especially considering this is a Catholic Community Forum.

[CCF_Michael]